Democrats are cherry-picking facts to justify abandonment of Iraqi people by USA.

Democrats lobby American people to justify withdrawal from Iraq. In doing so, they engage in very thing the accused Bush administration of doing in the run-up to the war : cherry-picking of facts.

1. No Democratic leader has even mentioned the issue of imminent genocide that will transpire in Iraq once Americans leave. Has Vietnam taught USA anything at all? The moment our enemies — Iran and/or Al-Qaeda — will gain territory left by Americans, they will gladly slit throats of Iraqis friendly to America we left behind. I am talking about Iraqis, who gullibly believed American promises of “Democracy” and “freedom”, I am talking about Iraqis who enlisted in Iraqi Police and Army.

2. No Democratic leader has even mentioned recent military, diplomatic, and infrastructure successes in Iraqas if the change in Anbar province, for instance, has not happened at all. What major news outlets shrieking Baghdad without power — where are they now, today, to shed light on successes of Iraqi reconstruction?

I admit, maybe invasion of Iraq was a mistake. Certainly, if I knew how Bush would fumble it, I would not have agreed to it. But any reasonable man has to agree —

1. We started war in 2003. Nothing we can do today can change that. Iraqi people did not choose this war — WE DID!

2. If we withdraw, we LOOSE by admitting that Al-Qaeda and/or Iran is more powerful than our military.

2. If we withdraw, we will let Iraqi militias to kill ALL who they see as friend of America in Iraq (just like it happened in Vietnam).

Advertisements

20 Comments »

  1. daredevil92103 said

    i agree with you on that one. we cant up and leave. it would be a mess. it already is a mess, but nothing like it would be it we left.

  2. ChenZhen said

    If Vietnam had taught us anything, we wouldn’t have gone into Iraq in the first place.

  3. armilnov said

    to ChenZen

    “If Vietnam had taught us anything, we wouldn’t have gone into Iraq in the first place.”

    But we are THERE ALREADY, aren’t we?

  4. 2008voter said

    to ChenZhen
    “If Vietnam had taught us anything, we wouldn’t have gone into Iraq in the first place.”
    the whole point what golos is making ( and i agree with golos on that ) is that you cannot fix one mistake by making another one. so let us say Vietnam had not taught us anything. Is it an excuse for making another mistake in Iraq byiving up , juts because we do not like how is it going? So if we did not learn form Vietnam (and i would add for Afghanistan and form the cold war in general) let us at least learn form Iraq and do not another mistake just becuase we already made many mistakes before

  5. ChenZhen said

    Yea, we’re there. If we’re going to leave, the best way to do that is for the Iraqis to ask is to go and for us to promise that we’ll do so if that happens. I’ve actually proposed sending the Iraqis back to the ballots to vote on it.

    I just believe that we’re doing more harm than good being there, and if you don’t want the withdraw to look like a defeat this would be the way to do it.

  6. armilnov said

    ChenZen

    let me ask you:

    “I just believe that we’re doing more harm than good being there”

    Why do you BELIEVE that we do more harm than good? Where are your facts supporting this BELIEF?

    Have you at all considered possibility that you are wrong, that withdrawal would be an invitation to much greater bloodshed than now?

    BTW, I am not insisting I am right at all either, maybe I am wrong too, I admit that. I do hope I am wrong about what will happen in Iraq if we leave tomorrow.

    MY POINT IS: I like this war no more than any other man. For the sake of argument, I concede it might have been a mistake (that is a different discussion altogether). But, let us not make mistake today too — we have not seen the worst in Iraq, which will come if we withdraw , leaving Iraq as a mess.

  7. daredevil92103 said

    i think we have caused iraq to become a hot-bed for terrorists. look at the numbers of suicide bombers, and bombings in general before our occupation, compared to after. leaving now would make it worse, of course, because we’ve caused the whole place to be in chaos. look, we invaded to set up shop there and get our stuff out of saudi arabia, because they are growing closer to china and away from us. well, they never were for us.
    if bush wouldnt have flat-out lied to us, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
    we dont want democracy in the middle east, because if that happened, then it would be detrimental to our best interests. in fact we want war in the middle east, so we can continue to take all the resources for ourselves.
    no offense, it’s just my opinion.

  8. al said

    Why we attacked Iraq? Why we attacked Nazi Germany?
    Germany never attacked the USA. Japan did !
    occupation is the whole different story , it could be done differently it should be done differently, it could be avoided at all.
    Bush lied about reasons for invasion as much as democrats are lying today about reasons for withdrawal, no less no more, same cherry picking of information same spinning , same wishful thinking same …..everything

  9. ChenZhen said

    armilnov said,
    July 25, 2007 @ 9:42 pm

    Why do you BELIEVE that we do more harm than good? Where are your facts supporting this BELIEF?

    I’ve always beleived that occupying Iraq was only going to inspire more terrorism. That’s backed up by facts.

    But I’m not sure if that is as significant as the fact that the Iraqis themselves believe our being there does more harm than good..

    I think this is just strange. I mean, the American people doen’t want us there, the Iraqi people don’t want us there, and even the Iraqi government is leaning towards a timetable. How would our staying against everyone’s will be a good thing?

  10. daredevil92103 said

    nazi germany had attacked and occupied other countries. we got involved after that. actually hitler used much the same tactics that bush has used. convince the people we are under attack (by jews ), then adopt preemptive strike. and occupy. his was racial based. ours is ideal/racial based.
    hitler did far worse than bush has, so, no i’m not comparing the two, exept on fear and preemptive attack.
    and lying is wrong on both sides. the fact is we did attack iraq. no, i dont think we can pull out right now, either, but iraq and nazi germany has nothing in common. well, both were dictatorships, as we may soon become as well.
    actually we learned we couldnt fight low intensity conflict very well in nam, so we used latin america as our experiment, so to speak, to master that type of warfare.

  11. 2008voter said

    to daredevil92103
    “nazi germany had attacked and occupied other countries. we got involved after that”
    So did Iraq: Iran , Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, own Kurdish population.

    “actually hitler used much the same tactics that bush has used. convince the people we are under attack (by jews ), then adopt preemptive strike. and occupy. his was racial based. ours is ideal/racial based.” “hitler did far worse than bush has, so, no i’m not comparing the two, exept on fear and preemptive attack.”

    I see your point but I respectfully disagree: even in a narrow context of preemptive attack only you is wrong and, pardon me, uninformed to compare Hitler with USA. Hitler never attacked other countries because of Jews . Czechoslovakia was attacked because of Sudeten Germans not Jews, Hitler indeed methodically exterminated Jews on his own country and in countries which he possessed but never used it as pretext for aggression.
    It is incorrect comparison , if anybody should be compared with Hitler (even from the pint of view of preemptive aggression) it is Hussein. ( oppression of Kurds, expelling and extermination of Jews (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4703546/site/newsweek/) denying any political rights to own people, preemptive attack on Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, attack on Iran . Tell me : if we would attack Hitler in 1938 would peacenecks consider USA an aggressor? Of course they would . Would this aggression save millions of lives? Yes it would. So, sometimes it worth to be considered an aggressor and save lives by preemptively attack a potential aggressor .

    ”and lying is wrong on both sides. the fact is we did attack iraq. no, i dont think we can pull out right now, either,”
    Thank you I really respect your common sense , I mean it . There are lot of people today who lost the ability to think coherently at all, I am glad that you one of those who still thinking logically . I am glad that you see the bigger picture despite your avatar

    “iraq and nazi germany has nothing in common. well, both were dictatorships, as we may soon become as well.”
    As you said “both were dictatorships” and it is already a bunch of commonalities. “we may soon become as well” a dictatorship :
    If left party will come to power then may be. Do not forget that Nazi was National Socialist German Workers’ Party (NSDAP) . it was a populists socialist movement with huge overtones of nationalism.
    Read the nazi program:
    http://www.fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/resource/document/PROGRAM.htm
    “• We demand the nationalization of all trusts. .
    • We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
    • We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions. “

    So take Edwards( two Americas) or Howard Dean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FzCeV0ZFc and add to that a nationalism and you are getting Nazis.

  12. 2008voter said

    to ChenZen:
    “Iraqis to ask is to go and for us to promise that we’ll do so if that happens. I’ve actually proposed sending the Iraqis back to the ballots to vote on it.”
    i do not think it is a good idea to put Iraqis in command on USA military. i do not want one American solder will be killed because what Iraqis want. it is not about them it is about us.if bush care that much about Iraqis he can run for president of Iraq i do not care . leaving the mess in Iraq it is our problem. it will go after us: this is the problem
    “I just believe that we’re doing more harm than good being there, ”
    based on what we believed in we came to this country now you want us to leave based on believing? could we stop overestimate reliability of our hunch?
    “you don’t want the withdraw to look like a defeat this would be the way to do it.”
    it does not matter to me how it look like , what is important is what it is. if we withdrew it is a defeat, no matter how it look like

  13. armilnov said

    to daredevil92103

    OK, lets get into “Iraq 2003” mode , switching gears now 🙂

    “i think we have caused iraq to become a hot-bed for terrorists.”

    I am sorry, but I have to disagree. Here are facst from White House Background paper of Iraq from year 2002:

    # Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.

    # Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.

    # Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.

    # In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a “martyr” and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, “You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue.”

    Isn’t that supporting terrorism?

    “look at the numbers of suicide bombers, and bombings in general before our occupation, compared to after.”

    I do not think this is a fair comparison. There were no suicide bombers during Saddam’s time because Saddam , at the slightest provocation, had habit of ethnically cleansing offending nationality. Just as example (from History Channel video I watched): August 1983 – to punish Kurds for alleged assistance to Iranian forces in their capturing small key border town of Hajj Omran in July, Iraqi soldiers go door-to-door in every Kurd village in the northern province of Arbil, round up every male over 14 years old, and execute EVERY ONE them, burying bodies in mass graves in the desert. 8000 victims estimated. We on other hand, never use such methods. These terrorist scum act because they feel they have a chance, because we will not retaliate by nerve gassing their sisters and mothers, for obvious moral reasons.

    “f bush wouldnt have flat-out lied to us, we wouldn’t be in this mess.”

    I challenge you : tell me of a single instance when Bush has said something that we KNOW he knew to be false at that time. We are in this mess because of him — but not because he lied. He is just not a good Commander in Chief, that is all.

    “nazi germany had attacked and occupied other countries. we got involved after that. actually hitler used much the same tactics that bush has used. convince the people we are under attack (by jews ), then adopt preemptive strike.”

    What?

    First, no Jewish organization EVER had performed a terrorist act against Nazis. Nazis invented non-existent Jewish threat to fit racial intolerance of the time. Al-Qaeda, on other hand, is quite real — it exists, had attacked USA many times, and is enormously popular in some places of Muslim world, especially Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan, and — Iraq!

    Second, “preemptive” strike against whom? There were no JEWISH states in Europe for Hitler to attack. He attacked — Poland, Belgium, France, Czechoslovakia, USSR. Are you saying that USSR is a Jewish state? On other hand, we have Arab Muslim states which were directly responsible for allowing to Al-Qaeda operate on their territory. The most egregious example of this is — Iraq!

    After 911 we attacked Afghanistan, a country which is very diverse with Pushtun majority. Why do Pushtuns have to suffer to attacks against America perpetrated by Arab Muslims, who were trained and supported by Arab Muslim states, such as Iraq and Saudi Arabia?

  14. armilnov said

    to ChenZen

    ” Why do you BELIEVE that we do more harm than good? Where are your facts supporting this BELIEF?

    I’ve always beleived that occupying Iraq was only going to inspire more terrorism. That’s backed up by facts. “

    I do not dispute your facts, just your interpretation of them. We are fighting a war, and it is obvious that enemy is going to reciprocate by attacking you back as viciously as you attack him. You are saying that terrorism is on the rise in 2006. Maybe terrorist are fighting back against more effective methods by US Army?

    Let us imagine you saying : “Mr. FDR, after you invaded Iwo Jima, the violence in the Pacific had DOUBLED! Your policies are flawed!”

    What did you expect — Al-Qaeda are fighting open, gloves-off war against us, if they can escalate, they will. I am not saying war is going great, I just do not understand why expect Al-Qaeda, or Mahdi army, or Iran to decrease their attacks without a decisive American victory forcing them to do so?

    “But I’m not sure if that is as significant as the fact that the Iraqis themselves believe our being there does more harm than good..”

    First, I can give you another poll to look at:
    BBC IRAQ POLL 2007

    This poll asks Iraqis some questions, I just cite two results here. Let’s look:

    1. Compared to the time before the war in spring 2003, are things
    overall in your life much better now, somewhat better, about the same,
    somewhat worse, or much worse?
    43% – somewhat or much better
    22% – same
    36% – somewhat or much worse

    2. From today’s perspective and all things considered, was it
    absolutely right, somewhat right, somewhat wrong, or absolutely wrong that US-led coalition forces
    invaded Iraq in spring 2003?
    47% – absolutely or somewhat right
    53% – absolutely or somewhat wrong

    So, to summarize — 43% percent think their life is better because of invasion, and 47% think US was right to invade.
    So, who is better, your poll or my poll? What difference does it make? Can we make any sensible conclusion out of this contradicting information?

    Look, you say US citizens want US to withdraw — count me out! Besides, that is why we need strong leaders — unlike Bush — to do unpopular things we must sometimes do as a country. Otherwise, why should we not make all decisions open to a poll? Why do we need these clown in Congress to do any work at all?

  15. daredevil92103 said

    2008 voter, i have to agree with you on all points. i did change the che picture, because too many people give me crap about it. thank you for actually helping me see things from a different, truer perspective. i love to learn, and people who can help me with that do me a great service. thank you again.

  16. 2008voter said

    to daredevil92103!
    Thank you, you made my day:)
    Thank you for the discussion and… see you again online:)

  17. daredevil92103 said

    actually, 2008voter, i should thank you again.
    like i said, learning new ways to see things helps overcome pre-concieved notions and helps people actually think for themselves better. 🙂

  18. smrtas1 said

    Man, I love it when people debate rather than argue.

    Great discussion!

  19. daredevil92103 said

    i agree

  20. armilnov said

    to smrtas1 (and everyone else)

    “Man, I love it when people debate rather than argue.”

    You speak exactly what I think. 🙂

RSS feed for comments on this post · TrackBack URI

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: