Why Al-Qaeda attacked USA (not because of what you think)

This is quote from an amazing article at Belmont Club:

One of the most fascinating questions — one worthy of a book — must be why Osama Bin Laden chose to order his suicide airplanes into Manhattan rather than say, Beijing or Moscow. Both these nations have been campaigning against Muslims for centuries. And the answer, I suspect, lies in the “excited commands and shouts of glee form the Chinese on the soundtrack”. Or the veritable rain of shells that fell on Grozny in the recent past or the vicious campaign that still rages through Chechnya today. Maybe Bin Laden attacked America because he knew how it would fight. In a mode where even prisoners in Guantanamo Bay could insist upon their Korans being handled with white gloves, while a large section of America’s own media would condemn this treatment as too harsh.”

While on the same topic, a BBC News article from 2005:

China has been accused by two US-based human rights groups of conducting a “crushing campaign of religious repression” against Muslim Uighurs.

It is being done in the name of anti-separatism and counter-terrorism, says a joint report by Human Rights Watch and Human Rights in China.

It is said to be taking place in the western Xinjiang region, where more than half the population is Uighur.

China has denied that it suppresses Islam in Xinjiang.

It says it only wants to stop the forces of separatism, terrorism and religious extremism in the region, which Uighur separatists call East Turkestan.”

I, as a person who grew up in ex-Soviet Union, can tell you: the only reason why Muslims attacks USA (which did a lot of good for Muslims in Kosovo) instead of turning on Russia (which persecuted Chechens, Ingush, and other muslim peoples) or China (just read the quote above) is because they know:

Chinese or Russians would answer to any terrorist act from any Muslim organization with a wave of horrific atrocities, while USA would reply at all only if it would be desperate to defend itself. Look at Chechnya, look at Chinese Uighurs.

That is the reason why Al-Qaeda attacked USA, not Russia or China.

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41 Comments »

  1. So you think the U.S. invasion of Iraq and Afganistan was fun for the people?

    The U.S. bombed two countries, destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq, jails thousands of people without justification, uses depleted uraniuim and chemical weapons that resulted in deformed babies and contaminated land?

    Regarding Osama Ben Laden, check out this article about what the FBI says about him and 9/11 http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html

  2. armilnov said

    “destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq”

    Trick question : who in 2003 alone allocated $92 billion for reconstruction of Iraq? Answer: USA. Check your facts.

    “uses depleted uraniuim and chemical weapons that resulted in deformed babies and contaminated land?”

    What chemical weapons? It was Saddam who used chemical weapons — in Halabja and Anfal against Kurds. Where do you get these “facts” from?
    By the way — depleted uranium is used as amour on Abrams tank. If there would be anybody harmed from it, it would US soldiers. You are wrong on that too.

    And please — can you find anything substantial for your “Osama bin Laden is innocent” theory, besides some 9th-tier website?

    Osama himself, NOT ONCE in almost seven years claimed innocence! What are you — his lawyer?

  3. armilnov,

    Look at the FBI’s website regarding Osama Ben Laden. http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
    Why wouldn’t an attack which killed 3,000 people be specifically mentioned?

    A journalist named Ed Haas’ contacted the FBI and asked them about it, he writes
    “On June 5, 2006, the Muckraker Report contacted the FBI Headquarters, (202) 324-3000, to learn why Bin Laden’s Most Wanted poster did not indicate that Usama was also wanted in connection with 9/11. The Muckraker Report spoke with Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When ‘The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.’”
    See complete article at http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html

  4. armilnov said

    “Why wouldn’t an attack which killed 3,000 people be specifically mentioned?

    I don’t know. Maybe, because FBI people are morons? Also, who is Ed Haas? Why do I have to believe him?

    You STILL have not answered:

    If Usama is innocent, why didn’t he at least ONCE try to even claim innocence? Why all the video and audio addresses — most of them glorifying 911 attacks, by the way — without a SINGLE attempt to exonerate himself?

  5. You say Osam hasn’t denied being responsible for 9/11? See this http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

    Some people question the authenticity of some of those videos and audio tapes released by Al Qaeda.

    You say who is Ed Haas? Well at least he gives you the name and telephone number ((202) 324-3000 )of the person he contacted. Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI said “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

  6. armilnov,
    You say billons of dollars were allocated for reconstruction? But did the money really all go to reconstruction? See http://www.alternet.org/story/21227/?page=2
    where it says

    “In November, The New York Times obtained a letter from an officer in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers insisting that she would not “succumb to the political pressures from the … U.S. Embassy to go against my integrity and pay a higher price for fuel than necessary.” She was overruled by her superiors, who issued a memo insisting that the prices the company was charging were “fair and reasonable,” and that it wouldn’t be asked to provide the figures required to justify them.

    Other companies appear to have charged the authority for work they never did, or to have paid sub-contractors to do it for them for a fraction of what they were paid by the CPA. Yet, even when confronted by cast-iron evidence of malfeasance, the authority kept employing them. When the Inspector-General recommended that the US army withhold payments from companies which appear to have overcharged it, it ignored him. No one has been charged or punished. The U.S. Department of Justice refuses to assist the whistleblowers who are taking these companies to court.”

    Here is some information about depleted uranium used in Iraq http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3627

    “It is used to make the tips of armour-piercing shells because it is extremely dense: 1.7 times as dense as lead. Also, unlike other heavy metals that tend to flatten, or mushroom, upon impact, DU has the ability to “self-sharpen” as material spread out by the impact ignites and burns off as the munition pierces its target.
    During the Gulf war in 1991, the US and Britain fired an estimated 350 tonnes of DU at Iraqi tanks, a figure likely to be matched in the course of the current conflict”

  7. armilnov said

    OK,

    Can it be Usama got scared and tried to deny it at first? Maybe.

    Who is more of authority on this question: CNN or Al-Qaeda?

    What can you say about this (results of just 5 minute search on YouTube):
    Here is a video al-Zawahiri (Usama lieutenant) , look in the background – Mohammad Atta’s picture! Pictures of towers burning! And here, in different video, AGAIN! Here, Al-Qaeda promotional video with pictures of WTC burning (around 4:01 in the video).

    GIVE ME JUST ONE VIDEO OF USAMA SAYING WORDS “I AM INNOCENT”.

    There isn’t one, do not worry.

    “You say who is Ed Haas? Well at least he gives you the name and telephone number ((202) 324-3000 )of the person he contacted.”

    So? What do you expect me to do — call that number?

    Look, media is ready even to use fakes or Al-Qaeda promotional videos to hurt Bush or war — remember Dan Rather? Remember how CNN showed Iraq sniper videos?

    Trust me, if there would be ANY evidence suggesting that Usama did not do 911, we would know about it. Why? Because it is Bush’ worst nightmare, and everyone knows it.

    The fact that you have to resort to unknown reporter working for unknown news outlet to support your point is very telling.

  8. armilnov said

    “You say billons of dollars were allocated for reconstruction? But did the money really all go to reconstruction?”

    Yes, people steal — and they will go to prison for that. Does that mean that ALL money gets stolen in Iraq? NO! Why does your article only mention isolated incidents of theft, without estimating how much money gets stolen in general? Maybe, because *usually* contractors in Iraq do not steal?

    Does one , or two, or three, or even four thieves in Iraq mean that all of the contractors are thieves?

    ALSO:
    About Depleted Uranium (DU) — you are right on that, it is used not only for armor, but also for shells. But, HOW can using DU cause “deformed babies”, as you said in first posting?

  9. 2008voter said

    to randalljones :
    “You say billons of dollars were allocated for reconstruction? But did the money really all go to reconstruction?”
    4 words for you : oil for food program
    any thoughts about those “billons of dollars were allocated for ” helping starving people?? any outrage? any suggestions? any lessons learned??

  10. 2008voter,

    If the United States hadn’t led the way for the sanctions the problem wouldn’t have occurred. If the United Stated hadn’t helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported hm when he was committing his worst atrocities, we wouldn’t have this problem today.

    The “oil for food program” does not excuse the corruption that exists now.
    _____________________________________________________
    armilnov,

    regarding your question depleted uranium causing deformed babies. DId you read the whole New Scientist article I linked to above it says:

    Miller has found one way this may happen. She has discovered the first direct evidence that radiation from DU damages chromosomes within cultured cells. The chromosomes break, and the fragments reform in a way that results in abnormal joins (Military Medicine, vol 167, p 120). Both the breaks and the joins are commonly found in tumour cells.

    More crucially, she has recently found that DU radiation increases gene activity in cultured cells at doses of DU not known to cause chemical toxicity (Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry, in press). The possible consequences are made all the more uncertain because no one knows if genes switched on by DU radiation enhance the damage caused by genes switched on by DU’s toxic effects, or vice versa. “I think that we assumed that we knew everything that we needed to know about uranium,” says Miller. “This is something we have to consider now when we think about risk estimates.”

    regarding Ed Haas being an unknown news reporter, so what? Ever one knows abut the FBI.
    Look at Judith Miller of The New York Times. She is famous for being a liar.

  11. 2008voter said

    to randalljones
    you said,
    “If the United States hadn’t led the way for the sanctions the problem wouldn’t have occurred. If the United Stated hadn’t helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported hm when he was committing his worst atrocities, we wouldn’t have this problem today. The “oil for food program” does not excuse the corruption that exists now.”
    Ok let me summarize what you said:
    # 1. no matter what anybody does, if anything goes wrong then the USA is to blame
    #2 nothing excuses USA from being blamed for that .
    #3 the reason why nothing excuses USA from being wrong ? See the answer in the paragraph #1
    Did I get your point correctly? Correct me if I am wrong
    “If the United States hadn’t led the way for the sanctions the problem wouldn’t have occurred.”
    Not the USA but UN did impose the sanctions, am I wrong? ? Are you familiar with the United Nations Security Council Resolution 661?
    “The “oil for food program” does not excuse the corruption that exists now.”

    I never said it was an excuse , what I am saying is that it is an obvious double standard to be against corruption only in cases if/when you can blame USA for corruption, and to be generously forgiving if USA cannot be blamed. If it is not a cherry picking of information what is that ? Are you trying by twisting the information to mislead us out from Iraq?

    “If the United Stated hadn’t helped Saddam Hussein into power and supported hm when he was committing his worst atrocities, we wouldn’t have this problem today”

    “ what IF” history is counterproductive and good only for science fiction. Nobody knows what would happened IF something would not happen. Are you god do you have a crystal ball. How do you know what would happened.
    I sure only in one what if scenario: IF USA would not support Iraq it would be blamed for not supporting Iraq . Take a look on how Gore criticizing Bush father for not going into Iraq and you see the trend.

    The problem with blaming USA for everything without crediting it for anything is that it is a logical dead end and it explains nothing

  12. armilnov said

    to randalljones

    “If the United States hadn’t led the way for the sanctions the problem wouldn’t have occurred….”

    I agree with 2008voter — you cant possibly claim to know what would or would not have happened. Nobody can.

    Besides, so what? We were wrong in the past (nobody here disputes that) — it does not mean that we are wrong today.

    *** Depleted Uranium (DU) ***

    I will point your attention to one key sentence in your quote:

    “Miller has found one way this may happen….”

    The article itself does not stipulate in any way that what you say — babies born deformed due to DU — is a true, proven, undisputed scientific fact. They merely speculate — which scientists do a lot — that this is one out of many ways “this may happen”.

    Can you prove that those babies are NOT deformed because of Saddam’s nerve gas atrocities? (in science this is called alternative hypothesis)

    Do you have credentials in Molecular Biology or Chemistry to ascertain for a fact that this scientist is NOT making an honest mistake?

    What about peer review — do you have any studies done by others supporting this claim with factual scientific evidence?

  13. 2008voter,

    The UN talks a lot but it is ineffective in its actions. The U.S. is the force behind the U.N.. Look at the U.N. resolutions that have condemned Israel’s actions, but sanctions have never been placed against Israel because it is the United States that really decides what sanctions are to be placed, like the ones recently stated against Iran.

    armilnov,

    You want scientific proof from me yet you do not want any proof from the government. I ask: do have any scientific proof that all those “Al Qaeda” video and audio tapes really came from Al Qaeda?

    Here is a YouTube film by Barry Lando (former 6o minutes producer) about the relationship between Saddam Hussein and the Untied States. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeY05iS5iv0&mode=related&search=
    The United States and other Western countries continued to sell chemical weapons to Saddam even when they knew what he was doing with it. The United States even gave strategic support to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. Actually the United States sold weapons to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war. See http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2292

    You can find reputable scientists argue both sides of any issue, sometimes because there is no one clear answer, other times it is due to political or economic influence.
    But regardless of the effects of the DU, If the United States had not interfered with Iraq http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html in the 1950s and 1960s, helping Saddam Hussein into power, we would not have this problem today. The United States engages in regime change no only in the Middle East but in many other regions. It has even toppled democratically elected regimes. This is wrong. People in all countries should be allowed the right to self-determination.

  14. armilnov said

    TO :: randalljones

    “but sanctions have never been placed against Israel because it is the United States that really decides what sanctions are to be placed”

    Israel:
    — DOES NOT exterminate its minorities (like Sudan exterminating Sudanese blacks),
    — DOES NOT condone destruction of non-Jewish religious sites (like Taliban blowing up 1000 year-old Buddhas),
    — DOES NOT persecute its gays (like Iran).

    These are just three top-of-head examples, by the way. Is it at all impossible that no sanctions are placed against Israel, because compared to its neighbors (who want to literally wipe it off the map, by the way), its actions do not warrant sanctions?

    DEPLETED URANIUM
    “You want scientific proof from me yet you do not want any proof from the government.”

    I am a PhD student in electrical engineering, and STILL I do not think I have competence in area of Molecular Biology to pass judgment on this matter. I just wanted YOU to realize the fact, that if I cannot pass judgment, then you cannot for sure.

    “do have any scientific proof that all those “Al Qaeda” video and audio tapes really came from Al Qaeda?”

    How is that AT ALL related to “scientific” discussion we were having about DEPLETED URANIUM?

    Stay on topic please. You got anything to say about DEPLETED URANIUM?

    Besides, I am not going to spend time proving obvious — that Usama on the Al-Qaeda tapes is actually Usama, and NOT, let us say, Ronald Reagan. If you want to present evidence that Usama is actually Ronald Reagan, please go ahead.

    “Western countries continued to sell chemical weapons to Saddam even when they knew what he was doing with it.”

    I never argued that what we did THEN was right. However, it does not mean were are wrong TODAY.

    “You can find reputable scientists argue both sides of any issue, sometimes because there is no one clear answer, other times it is due to political or economic influence.”

    Are you a scientist?

    Are you speaking from personal experience?

    How would you know anything about any influence in any science AT ALL?

  15. 2008voter said

    to randalljones
    So, it is what I meant : blame the USA for everything including for UN. If UN does any good ( does it??) it is because UN is good, if not ,then it is because the USA is bad .Very logical!! Who needs all money and efforts spent on UN if UN is indeed “talks a lot but it is ineffective in its actions. The U.S. is the force behind the U.N” let us dismantle UN and follow USA. Any objections?

    “Look at the U.N. resolutions that have condemned Israel’s actions, but sanctions have never been placed against Israel because it is the United States that really decides what sanctions are to be placed, like the ones recently stated against Iran.”
    This is delicious. For your information, the very first Israeli-related resolution of UN which was ignored by Arab world was Resolution 181 the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly ( 29 November 1947) does it ring the bell?
    If you are such a proponent of UN, fairest thing you have to be outraged with is that this very first fundamental resolution was never accepted by Arabs. Israel was not recognized even in its very right to exist by Arabs .So , what is the point to accept any anti – Israel resolution ? It sounds like they are saying to Israel :”hey we are going to kill you any way and you do not deserve to be alive but we just too weak to do that militarily, therefore we demand you to behave yourself while you are alive”. If only country in UN who vetoes this anti-Israel insolence is US so, then good for USA.

  16. –2008voter,

    I am not a proponent of the UN.

    –armilnov,

    I am not a scientist, but any one who follows the media can see that scientists often do not agree. One day there will be a news report that says a certain vitamin or food prevents a particular disease, then some time later another news report will come out that says that same vitamin or food doesn’t prevent that particular disease. There are a lot of debates among scientists.

    You mention the Taliban, but you leave out that the United States recruited and trained Muslim extremists to fight its proxy war agianst the Russians. The defeat of the Russians resulted in the collapse of the Soviet Union, which made the U.S. the number one super power of the world. In the meanwhile, millions of Afghans were killed and the country’s infrastructure destroyed.

    You want to bring up Sudan, but how come you don’t want to say anything about the Congo, is it because the United States, Israel, and Europe benefit from the diamonds and other natural resources of the region? See http://worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm
    and
    http://zmagsite.zmag.org/JulAug2007/snow.html

    Getting back to the original topic, I don’t think the Iraqis appreciate being bombed and having their homes and their country’s infrastructure destroyed, regardless of how much money was spent on reconstruction.

  17. armilnov said

    “There are a lot of debates among scientists.”

    Bingo! Let’s leave scientist alone to do just that! Please do not try to make political issue out of science.

    “You mention the Taliban, but you leave out that the United States recruited and trained Muslim extremists”

    REALLY? Read this Human Rights Watch reportabout how Pakistan, not USA created, trained, and funded Taliban:

    “Support for the Taliban under Bhutto [then-leader of Pakistan] resided mainly in the interior ministry, according to some analysts. According to Ahmed Rashid, Bhutto’s interior minister, Gen. Naseerullah Babar, created the Afghan Trade Development Cell in the ministry ostensibly to promote trade routes to Central Asia but also to provide the Taliban with funds. Moreover, says Rashid, the state-owned Pakistan Telecommunications Corporation set up a telephone network for the Taliban; the public works department repaired roads and provided electricity; the paramilitary Frontier Corps, a part of the interior ministry, set up a wireless network for Taliban commanders; the Civil Aviation Authority repaired Qandahar airport and Taliban fighter jets; and Radio Pakistan provided technical support to the Taliban’s official radio service, Radio Shariat.94”

    “Congo, is it because the United States, Israel, and Europe benefit from the diamonds and other natural resources of the region?”

    Why are you switching topic, I thought we were talking about Israel and UN sanctions? Here is your original comment and my response.

    BESIDES : I do not use diamonds, and if your sources are correct, I am all for prosecuting people guilty of exploitation of African countries to the fullest extent of the law. If they are guilty as you say, I would hope they ALL get the death penalty.

    “I don’t think the Iraqis appreciate being bombed and having their homes and their country’s infrastructure destroyed”

    I repeat again :
    1. nobody appreciates war.
    2. We already fight war in Iraq — you cannot undo invasion.
    3. If we withdraw, we not only loose, we will subject Iraq to the mercy of inhuman barbarism of Sunni and/or Shia extremists.

    Do you disagree?

  18. armilnov said

    to randalljones:

    “The defeat of the Russians resulted in the collapse of the Soviet Union, which made the U.S. the number one super power of the world. In the meanwhile, millions of Afghans were killed and the country’s infrastructure destroyed.”

    Look, I was born in Soviet Union. I know what I am saying.

    Trust me, it was not Afghan war that destroyed USSR. It was Reagan.

    And a lot of atrocities were done by Russian there too. So, if you want to blame anyone for Afghanis living in country they do, blame Russia.

  19. 2008voter said

    ro Arminlnov and to randalljones:
    “You mention the Taliban, but you leave out that the United States recruited and trained Muslim extremists to fight its proxy war agianst the Russians.”
    I would not agree with Arminlnov and would not deny American involvement in Afghanistan against Russia .United States did recruit and train Muslims to fight against the Russians. What does it mean? That USA did help Muslims when they were needed help .Nothing else. I just see no signs of gratitude from Muslims for this help form USA which for that, as i see no signs of gratitude from Muslims for any other occasions when USA did stand for them.

  20. 2008voter,

    What the U.S. did in Afghanistan could hardly be called helping the Muslims. Imagine if a foreign country supplied the American KKK and other extremist groups with all sorts of weaponry and training to fight the Mexicans. Then after the Mexicans were defeated the foreign country left the extremist groups to run America. I hardly think Americans would appreciate the destruction of their country and the extremist groups running their country.

  21. armilnov said

    to 2008voter :

    “I would not agree with Arminlnov and would not deny American involvement in Afghanistan against Russia”

    Sure! Did America help Ahmad Shah Massoud, the “Lion of Panjshir”, who later became the man who scared Usama bin Laden more than anything else? YES! America was helping everyone, not only bin Laden or Taliban.

    Besides, let us say, America chipped in for 5% of Taliban, Pakistan supplied other 95%. Who is to blame? Of course Pakistan!

    to randalljones :
    “Imagine if a foreign country supplied the American KKK and other extremist groups with all sorts of weaponry and training to fight the Mexicans…Then after the Mexicans were defeated the foreign country left the extremist groups to run America”

    Are you saying that Latino immigration into America is like Red Army invasion? No matter how illegal, believe me, it is much NICER than having your country CARPET BOMBED. You example completely misses the point of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

  22. 2008voter said

    to randalljones :
    Mexicans? you mean illegals? i did not know that you are such a right wing extremist to compare illegal Mexicans in USA with soviet troops invading Afghanistan. Well,you may be ,after all , have your point on that let me think:)
    But how can you, such a pro-mulslim person, compare Muslim freedom fighters against soviet invasion with KKK?
    look: it could be either these Muslims are KKK and it means that origins of Muslim extremism have nothing to do with usa and it started way before usa (naive usa just tried to help muslims to fight invaders ),or these muslims were indeed freedom fighters and it was right thing to help them. in any way.
    you have to chose one, it cannot be both ways at your convenience

    fact: Muslims did fight invaders , USA did help them.Muslims instead of ” thank you” attacked the USA period.
    prove me wrong
    in any way there are numerous examples of USA helping Muslims besides Afganistan. Balkans for example. would you deny that USA did bomb serbs because of muslims?

  23. Armilov</b.,

    Pakistan was just doing the Untied States’ bidding. It did not benefit from the Afghan-Russian war. All Pakistan got from this war are millions of Afghan refugees and Islamic militant’s threatening to overthrow the government. Why would Pakistan spend money in the Afghan-Russian war when it has more interests in Kashmir and could have invested money on this issue instead?

    Russia got involved in Afghanistan by the requests of the Afghan government when foreign supported Mujahideen were trying to overthrow the government. DO you think that Afghans like being carpet bombed by the United States better than Russians? Both countries have done wrong.

    2008voter,

    When I bought up Mexico it wasn’t to compare illegal immigration, it was to just bring up an example up a foreign power instigating and fueling a war between countries that share a border. I don’t think you would appreciate a foreign power recruiting and training the worst members or our society to fight a war for us. The U.S. chose to train the worst members of Afghanistan and other Muslim countries.

    The United States was not interested in helping Muslims, this is why the U.S. didn’t care about the ideology of the militants they recruited and trained. It was well known the Muslims the U.S. worked with had a repressive interpretation of Islam and would throw acid in the faces of women that did not dress “correctly.” You talk about how the United States helped the Balkans. So are Iraqis are supposed to gladly accept the bombing of their country’s infrastructure, the deaths of hundreds of thousands because of what the U.S. did in the Balkans? By the way, when Clinton bombed Serbia, Muslim militants were asked to take part in the military intervention on the ground. So once again it is the Muslims who did the dirty work on the ground while the U.S. gets all the credit.

  24. armilnov said

    randalljones

    “Russia got involved in Afghanistan by the requests of the Afghan government when foreign supported Mujahideen were trying to overthrow the government.”

    WRONG!

    read in the wikipedia about how Soviet soldiers executed Afghani president:
    On December 27, 1979, 700 Soviet troops dressed in Afghan uniforms, including KGB OSNAZ and GRU SPETSNAZ special forces from the Alpha Group and Zenith Group, occupied major governmental, military and media buildings in Kabul, including their primary target – the Tajbeg Presidential Palace.

    That operation began at 19:00 hr., when the Soviet Zenith Group blew up Kabul’s communications hub, paralyzing Afghan military command. At 19:15, the storm of Tajbeg Palace began, with the clear objective to depose and kill President Hafizullah Amin. Simultaneously, other objectives were occupied (e.g. the Ministry of Interior at 19:15). The operation was fully complete by the morning of December 28.

    The Soviet military command at Termez, in Soviet Uzbekistan, announced on Radio Kabul that Afghanistan had been “liberated” from Amin’s rule. According to the Soviet Politburo they were complying with the 1978 Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Good Neighborliness and Amin had been “executed by a tribunal for his crimes” by the Afghan Revolutionary Central Committee. That committee then elected as head of government former Deputy Prime Minister Babrak Karmal, who had been demoted to the relatively insignificant post of ambassador to Czechoslovakia following the Khalq takeover, and that it had requested Soviet military assistance. [22]

    Trust me, President Amin never asked USSR to have his throat slit, as you suggest.

  25. armilnov,

    In the link you have provided it says that the previous president of Afghanistan, Nur Muhammad Taraki, had requested help from the Soviets.

    The Afghan government repeatedly requested the introduction of Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the spring and summer of 1979. They requested Soviet troops to provide security and to assist in the fight against the Mujahideen rebels. On 14 April 1979 the Afghan government requested that the USSR send 15 to 20 helicopters with their crews to Afghanistan, and on 16 June the Soviet government responded and sent a detachment of tanks, BMPs, and crews to guard the government in Kabul and to secure the Bagram and Shindand airfields. In response to this request, an airborne battalion, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel A. Lomakin, arrived at the Bagram Air Base on 7 July. They arrived without their combat gear disguised as technical specialists. They were the personal bodyguards for President Taraki. The paratroopers were directly subordinated to the senior Soviet military adviser and did not interfere in Afghan politics.

    and it is interesting to note this information about the United States

    Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated “According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise.” Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting U.S. policy, which, unbeknownst even to the Mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy “to induce a Soviet military intervention.” In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled:

    That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap… […] The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War.[16]

  26. armilnov said

    THANK YOU! You are right!
    You just proved that Americans did help Muslim rebels against Soviet-installed dictatorship within their country.

    “What the U.S. did in Afghanistan could hardly be called helping the Muslims.”

    Are you contradicting yourself now?

  27. armilnov said

    I am referring to this:
    “DO you think that Afghans like being carpet bombed by the United States better than Russians? Both countries have done wrong.”

    For your information: USA has precision guidance munitions, which cost a lot of money, and which save a lot of civilian lives.

    Americans do not carpet bomb. They care to minimize collateral damage, as much as it is physically possible. Russians don’t care — look on what Russian did to Grozny in 1995.

    Your comparison Red Army invasion of Afghanistan and American invasion of Afghanistan is disgusting and sick! Maybe Americans should carpet bomb Kabul couple times, just like Russians did Grozny, so that people like you would know the difference. (this is sarcasm, by the way)

  28. armilnov said

    Also , I would like to point out that the fact still remains:

    Afghani President Amin was MURDERED by soviet speznas. He DID NOT ask to be killed or for his country to be HIGHJACKED by soviet union, as you suggest.

  29. armilnov wrote “THANK YOU! You are right!
    You just proved that Americans did help Muslim rebels against Soviet-installed dictatorship within their country”

    I wrote, “What the U.S. did in Afghanistan could hardly be called helping the Muslims.”

    armilnov wrote, “Are you contradicting yourself now?”

    No, as I have said before, the United States worked with the the most repressive Muslims. It even recruited foreigners (non-Afghans) to engage in the conflict. The United States was not concerned anout how this would affect Afghanistan after the war was over. As Zbigniew Brzezinski said, the U.S. was concerned more with “giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War.”

  30. armilnov said

    I want to point things out:

    1. you are still WRONG about your assertion that Afghanis asked to be occupied and terrorized by Red Army. President Amin did not ask to be killed and for his country to be occupied. Admit it.

    2. America DID help thousands of NATIVE AFGHANI PATRIOTS to fight soviet oppression. It supplied thousands of Afghan patriots with weapons, and if among these thousands there were several dozens of foreigners like bin Laden, then USA could not have known about that. Admit it.

    For instance, nobody forced Ahmad Shah Massoud and his men, who were AFGHANIS , to take up arms against soviet union — he did it on his own. Are you denying that?

    “the United States worked with the the most repressive Muslims”

    Do you claim that USA President is omniscient? How would he know WHO every live member of Afghan insurgency IS?

    Also, you are WRONG : large portion of Afghan insurgency were genuine Afghan patriots — just like Ahmad Shah Massoud and people who fought under his command.

    In the middle of the imperialist war waged by USSR, choosing between taking years to collect info on every rebel, and just helping in ongoing war, America made the choice to just help rebels. Is that not enough understandable for you?

    “The United States was not concerned anout how this would affect Afghanistan after the war was over.”

    You are right about that. I agree, and admit : YOU ARE RIGHT! I hope we do not do the same mistake in Iraq today!

    Question is: are YOU ready to admit things I am right about? like:
    1. Red Army invasion is hundred times worse that US army invasion?
    2. USA did in fact helped Afghan rebels to fight against soviet empire invasion and occupation of their country?

  31. armilnov,

    I didn’t say President Amin asked for Soviet help, it was the previous President Nur Muhammad Taraki who asked for help from the Soviets.

    ‘The only thing that I can say is that the United States is the only country I want to live in. But this does not make right the mIltary and politcal interventions that the United States has done around the world. People have a right to self-determination. Our government lies to us. to justify unecessary wars that results in many deaths and people suffering (on both sides) for no good reason.

  32. armilnov said

    “I didn’t say President Amin asked for Soviet help, it was the previous President Nur Muhammad Taraki who asked for help from the Soviets.”

    He did not ask for Afghanistan to be occupied by Soviet Union’s Red Army either.

    “The only thing that I can say is that the United States is the only country I want to live in. But this does not make right the mIltary and politcal interventions that the United States has done around the world.”

    Who here argues with that?

    “Our government lies to us. to justify unecessary wars that results in many deaths and people suffering (on both sides) for no good reason.”

    That is a totally different topic of discussion, which I already debated you on.
    Who is to define what war is justified? YOU? How would you define a cause for just war? Maybe….using ariliners as missiles to kill 3,000 civilians for racist reason ? Just because they were guilty of being depraved, indulgent Americans who are dishonoring Allah?

    We can disagree about Iraq. I cannot comprehend why anyone would argue against crushing Taliban/Al-Qaeda alliance in Afghanistan….but on other hand, on other blog you argued that 9/11 was done by evil Jews, so, I guess, I should not be surprised.

  33. armilnov,

    Please do not lie. I did not say 9/11 was done by evil Jews. What I do say is that the government has not done a complete and honest investigation of 9/11. As you can see by Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now program, even Jews are involved in the discussion.

    I am not agisnt crushing the Taliban/Al-Qaeda. but ever since the U.S. began its “war on terror” Al Qaeda is committing more terrorists acts or at least that is what the media is claiming.

    I also sugggest you read this speech by Malalai Joya, female member of the Afghan Parliament who says that “The US has Returned Fundamentalism to Afghanistan” http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/12/468/

  34. armilnov said

    “I did not say 9/11 was done by evil Jews.”

    Sure, not in those words! You IMPLIED it. You said that there were Israelis, meaning Jews, who were celebrating 9/11 and new ahead of time where to place camera (read your own comment linked above). You carefully said it to IMPLY, not say outright what you meant.

    “I am not agisnt crushing the Taliban/Al-Qaeda. but ever since the U.S. began its “war on terror” Al Qaeda is committing more terrorists acts or at least that is what the media is claiming.”

    Where? In Manhattan?

    Oh, you mean, in countries where we wage war against them? You must be kidding — you did not expect Al-Qaeda to go this easy, did you? You thought they will all surrender the moment we enter Kabul?

    And about speech — I find it funny when a female who under Taliban would be treated as a mute, ignorant human cattle, would be saying these things about USA. It is only for USA soldiers that any woman (including her) is in Parliament in the first place. If she cannot appreciate that , that is not my problem.

  35. Armilov,

    How come you didn’t say anything to 2008voter when he put a link to a video of Palestinians cheering that he was implyng that evil Palestinians did 9/11?

    (Since none of the Palestinians were not interviewed, we really do not know what they were cheering about)\

    Did you read Malalai Joya’s speech? She criticizes the Taliban and says that the Northern Alliance (that the U.S. is working with) is no better in the treatment of women. She says

    “The US government removed the ultra-reactionary and brutal regime of Taliban, but instead
    of relying on Afghan people, pushed us from the frying pan into the fire and selected its
    friends from among the most dirty and infamous criminals of the “Northern Alliance”, which
    is made up of the sworn enemies of democracy and human rights, and are as dark-minded,
    evil, and cruel as the Taliban”

  36. armilnov said

    “How come you didn’t say anything to 2008voter when he put a link to a video of Palestinians cheering that he was implyng that evil Palestinians did 9/11?”

    1. Because he actually showed a video, which you did not. He had evidence, which you did not.

    2. Because he honestly and clearly said what he wanted to say (and it wasn’t that “Arabs were evil”, like you say) — read what he said:

    “What i am saying is that there are are numerous ,repeated, obvious and undisputed facts which prove deep anti-Americanisms within Muslim community and reaction on 9/11 is a reminder of that.
    Talking about “Israelis that were caught in New Jersey on 9/11 cheering and dancing” : i am not talking about 3 , or 4 or 5 people allegedly celebrating 9/11 . i am talking about mass population celebrating 9/11 , demonstrating the joy massively on the street.”

    “Since none of the Palestinians were not interviewed, we really do not know what they were cheering about”

    Enlighten me, please: what were these Palestinians cheering about on 9/11? United Nations AIDS day?

    “She criticizes the Taliban and says that the Northern Alliance (that the U.S. is working with) is no better in the treatment of women.”

    You still do not understand.

    If Taliban would be in power, she would be sitting at home, mute and without rights. If she would try to say any speech anywhere, she would be shot immediately. Northern Alliance must be better than Taliban, because, at the very least, they let her speak and be in Parliament and be a politician.
    If she cannot understand that, then she is in a wrong line of work.

  37. armilnov said

    I also wanna say this:

    2008 Voter never implied anything. He said , plainly, that Palestinian cheering on 9/11 was a mass expression of racist anti-Americanism. He never even tried to imply that Palestinians were involved in actually carrying out 9/11.

    He only said that they were celebrating. Got it?

  38. armilnov,

    Regarding the video of the Palestinians, we do not know who took those films and on what day they took it and under what situation they were taken. There was no mass population cheering. You are imagining.

    There is anti-Americanism all around the world, it is not exclusive to Muslims. Even the country credited with inventing democracy, Greece, is very anti-American. See http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L16822173

    What about Venezulan President Hugo Chavez who called President Bush the devil and worse names?

    Before the United States decided to give the Soviets its Vietnam, women were more invovled in society as well. Was all the deaths and destruction necessary to get one women into Parliament?

    The Untied States had been planning to invade Afghanistan before 9/11; only after they invaded did the U.S. pretend they were there to give women freedom.

  39. armilnov said

    “Regarding the video of the Palestinians, we do not know who took those films and on what day they took it and under what situation they were taken.”

    Well, if CNN is not good enough for you, I can’t help you.

    “There was no mass population cheering. You are imagining.”

    I imagined seeing that video on CNN on 9/11? You make me laugh.

    “There is anti-Americanism all around the world, it is not exclusive to Muslims.”

    Did I ever say that anti-American racists are only among Muslims? You are putting words into my mouth. I know couple anti-American russian relatives of mine — SO WHAT? That is an excuse to celebrate 9/11? “The whole world does it, so we do it too”?

    “The Untied States had been planning to invade Afghanistan before 9/11;”

    Why should I believe this? What you say is untrue. Prove it.

    “only after they invaded did the U.S. pretend they were there to give women freedom.”

    But they did give freedom, did they not? I was right about today in Afghanistan being better for women and non-Muslims than under Taliban, was I not? Do NOT switch the subject.

    I quote myself:
    “If Taliban would be in power, she would be sitting at home, mute and without rights. If she would try to say any speech anywhere, she would be shot immediately. Northern Alliance must be better than Taliban, because, at the very least, they let her speak and be in Parliament and be a politician.”

    Am I wrong?

  40. armilnov,

    The Taliban would not have come into power without the military intervention of the United States. It was the United States that was training, recruiting, and collaborating with the extremist Muslims who threw acid in the faces of women who did not dress correctly.

    Regarding the video of the Palestinians cheering, just because it was shown on CNN it does not mean it is authentic; it was shown onother televisons stations as well. Many television and radio stations played or reported on the most recent Osama Ben Laden video, which is clearly a fake. See http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2007/07/al-qaeda-releases-new-osama-tape.html

    Look again at that video of the cheering Palestinians. How many people are in the video? How many blocks are filled with cheering people? The film is taken on one block in front of some stores. There are no masses of the population cheering.

  41. armilnov said

    “The Taliban would not have come into power without the military intervention of the United States.”
    Maybe , for the sake of argument, let us imagine you are right. But that only proves more that it is USA who is obliged to destroy Taliban now.

    We created it (as you say). Therefore, it is us who must destroy it. Who should Afghanis pay price for our mistakes?

    “Regarding the video of the Palestinians cheering, just because it was shown on CNN it does not mean it is authentic; it was shown onother televisons stations as well.”
    So, it was not only shown on CNN , but on many other TV channels? And still not one successful attempt to debunk it that you can reference? I repeat, if you do not believe CNN video I cannot help you.

    “Many television and radio stations played or reported on the most recent Osama Ben Laden video, which is clearly a fake.”
    Let us assume that video you reference was, in fact, debunked. That is the point — that video is debunked. Where is proof that Palestinian video is untrue?

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