Let us end War in Iraq by winning it, not loosing it!

We are at war. Nothing Democrats can do TODAY can change decision made by Congress and President in 2003. Nothing can turn time back.

Two wrongs does not make one right. If we make a horrible mistake TODAY by withdrawing prematurely, it will not fix a horrible mistake in 2003. Withdrawing today from Iraq means:
1. Slaughter in Iraq beyond anyone’s imagination. Anything in Iraq today will look like a walk in the park. 2. Defeat of US military by terrorists — just like Israeli defeat in Lebanon by Hezbollah.

It does not take a genius to end war by loosing it — it is like a doctor who cures headache with decapitation. We can END war by WINNING it, or we can END war by LOOSING it. Question is : which one do we prefer?

Democrats undeniably choose defeat — withdrawal from Iraq IS defeat. Defeat of US military, defeat of our morale, acknolwedgement that Al-Qaeda is more powerful than us, Americans.

Do not miunderstand me — Bush has botched this war horribly. He deserves ALL the blame for current violence, for his inability to foresee insurgency (which was obvious — no country submits to occupation without a fight!).

BUT to use Bush’s mistakes from yesterday to justify Democrat’s intention to make mistakes tomorrow is criminal. We must resolve to end the War in Iraq by winning it, not by loosing it, and we must start looking for ways to accomplish that.


UPDATE : I decided to cite the cause of this posting. This posting was inspired by this discussion (foul language warning), involving 2008 Voter.

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20 Comments »

  1. programimi said

    I have to say that this is the only rational opinion I’ve read on this topic today.
    thnx golos

  2. I would agree with you if their was any projection or model (that made sense) that has us winning the war eventually. The war was one a long time ago. This is a different thing. Nothing is going to be gained by staying there. All the doomsday predictions are going to happen upon our withdrawal no matter when it occurs.

  3. armilnov said

    “All the doomsday predictions are going to happen upon our withdrawal no matter when it occurs.”

    I do not agree. What is your basis for saying that? Why do you think so?

  4. armilnov said

    THANK YOU programimi!

    By the way, I really strongly suggest to visit 2008 Voter blog too — it is done by a very good and wise friend of mine, whom I respect immensely. I think you will find interesting things there.

  5. because removing Saddam wasa huge blunder. A strong secular leader kept religious intolerance under control. No puppet government that seated can control the deep and historic rift between sunni and shiite. Add to that the feeling of the majority that they were treated unfairly under the saddam regime in favor of the sunni, and then toss some kurds into the mix.

    The west’s understanding of the region is much like this comment. superficial. Dig a little about the religious history of the factions, the saddam regime, and the kurdish problem, and then post me and we’ll discuss it. If you already have, drop me an e-mail and we’ll talk about it. I shouldn’t stuff this blog with my what i consider informed opinion on the region

  6. “that we seated”

  7. armilnov said

    “I shouldn’t stuff this blog with my what i consider informed opinion on the region”

    Trust me, I am not ignorant about this region — I lived there for 15 years.

    I NEVER said invasion of Iraq was a right thing to do — that is a COMPLETELY different conversation, irrelevant at this point in time.

    My point is :
    America started this mess. It would be criminal for America to dump this mess on Iraqis, just because it became too “inconvenient”. It is not fair — Iraqis never chose the war, WE DID, and now you want them to deal with it on their own? We started it, we must finish it. Do you not agree?

  8. Armilnov….no I don’t. I think we should withdraw our ground forces…lend whatever diplomatic support we can, entreat the united nations or the united arab league to take a hand in Iraq. All our presence does is exascerbate the situation.

    George Bush the senior listened to sound advice and left when the mission was over. We are now in a situation where nothing we do will improve the situation for the Iraqi people. Staying only prolongs the inevitable, and if you lived in the region for 15 years you know I am right.

  9. armilnov said

    to criminyjicket

    “lend whatever diplomatic support we can, entreat the united nations or the united arab league to take a hand in Iraq. All our presence does is exascerbate the situation.”

    How exactly can UN help Iraqis? More resolutions? Have you forgotten Oil For Food scam? And Arab League — what was the last time Arab league helped anything or anyone? What was the last time diplomacy worked against Al-Qaeda?

    “We are now in a situation where nothing we do will improve the situation for the Iraqi people. Staying only prolongs the inevitable, and if you lived in the region for 15 years you know I am right.”

    I know this — I imagine that I am an Iraqi, who for past 4 years has been living on the battlefield he DID NOT choose. And then, the people who CREATED this battlefield, tell him — “it is your own mess now”. How would that make you feel?

    I am not arguing with you — things in Iraq are sad. But please, ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

    Iraqi did not choose to start this war in THEIR homeland — WE DID. Is it fair to abandon them in this mess that WE started to the mercy of thieves of UN??

    Also, starting a war might have been a mistake — dumping the war into the lap of helpless Iraqis is a mistake FAR WORSE! You think Iraqis hate America for starting the war? Believe me, Iraqis will hate America FAR WORSE when they will realize that we abandon them to deal with hornets nest that WE stirred.

    Anyone can end a war by loosing it. We owe it to Iraqis to find a way to WIN.

  10. fair is a place you go to ride the ferris wheel. What is REAL is that no matter how long we stay, when we leave a theological order will take control. Which faction does so is not important. What is important is that all we are doing is delaying the inevitable.

    Are you suggesting that U.S. forces should remain in Iraq in perpetuity?

  11. armilnov said

    “Are you suggesting that U.S. forces should remain in Iraq in perpetuity?”

    Don’t we have forces in Germany? South Korea? Kuwait? I do not see you itching to withdraw from Korea — why?

  12. because that was not the question. I would happily withsraw our troops from what is no longer a strategic interest for us. We do not need to have troops in any of those nations. That being said, none of those nations have large numbers of mullah driven nutbags trying to kill our troopps either.

    now deny that.

  13. armilnov said

    I am not denying anything.

    You still have not answered the questions I asked you:

    1. Do you think it is fair for us to abandon Iraqi people to deal with mess WE started in THEIR country?

    2. Are you denying obvious fact, that the moment we withdraw, Iraqis will start dying by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS?

    I guess what you meant in your previous comment is that IRAQI PEOPLE are “no longer a strategic interest for us” ?

  14. i did answer, but like sean hannity you don’t get it.

    1. yes, i think it is fair. their government is laying on their ass, and its time they got moving

    2 of course they will, but that will happen no matter when we leave so i say, leave now

    3. the iraq people were never of strategic importance to us.

    clear now?

  15. armilnov said

    Perfectly clear.

    1. You BELIEVE that Iraq will not get better, without citing any facts that would support you. You engage in cherry-picking of facts, ignoring successes in Anbar province, for instance, to justify abandonment of Iraq.

    2. You could not care less for the Iraqi people who DID NOT CHOOSE this war, but who are FORCED TO LIVE IN IT. When we withdraw, YOU will still have your precious Starbucks. IRAQIS will be subjected to the WORST GENOCIDE OF 21st century.

    I wish, I HONESTLY WISH I was wrong. But you have to agree:
    IRAQ IS MESS NOW — IF WE LEAVE, MULTIPLY THAT MESS BY A THOUSAND — that is how bad it will be!


    I never said this war is great or fun– it sucks, I lived through a war myself. Our leaders suck and our military can’t get it together, but:
    WAR IS NOT A KEG PARTY
    –you cannot just stand up and leave without finishing business. War is something you either LOOSE or WIN
    –you cannot abandon your allies to sure death and revenge from enemy — that is WORSE THAN EVEN LOOSING

  16. 2008voter said

    “i did answer, but like sean hannity you don’t get it.”
    you sound like Alan Colmes:) is it you Alan?
    “yes, i think it is fair. their government is laying on their ass, and its time they got moving”
    i see your point and they has to be moved ,but by getting out you are not moving you are killing them , see the difference?
    “of course they will, but that will happen no matter when we leave ”

    you may be right again, and i would say i value lives of our troops above of everything. but the point is that democrats are what it both ways to pretend that they are care about poor Iraqis and to withdraw in the same time. it cannot be both ways for democrats to pretend that they care about iraqis and to withdraw in the same time.

    “the iraq people were never of strategic importance to us.”
    strategic importance? sounds like we have a strategy!!! if you know what are strategy is be so kind share your knowledge. the problem is that nobody is strategic importance for us because the USA has no strategy other than elections . neither clinton had strategy nor bush has

  17. […] war, cindy sheehan, military, politics, USA, culture, iraq, news Cindy Sheehan leads the charge of pro-defeat movement by saying that “war profiteers as Halliburton are raping the American tax payer of […]

  18. i’m not a democrat….i want our schools to function, and i’m tired of seeing money that could be spent for that spent on a wasted war.

    give me a break on the worst genocide thing. Genocide is when you attempt to exterminate a specific group of people. what will happen in Irawq is more along the lines of theological pacification. you may be right on the number, but I doubt it. They were meek under Saddam. They will fall back into that same meekness. The Kurds may have a bit of a problem.

    as far as abandoning allies being something you can’t do…wrong…historically thats exactly what we do. If you don’t believe me ask the vietnamese.

    I’m sorry you don’t like my viewpooint, but it is my viewpoint. I was against this atrocity in the first place, and I have not once changed my opinion of it. If the Iraqi people want freedom they need to en masse rise up and demand it. Trust me when I tell you they have plenty of firepower to make it happen

  19. armilnov said

    “give me a break on the worst genocide thing….you may be right on the number, but I doubt it”

    You miss the point : I hope I am wrong on the number of people that will be killed if we withdraw tomorrow, but what if I am right? Are you willing to take that chance?

    I remind you : regular Iraqis did not choose this war — WE DID.
    We are already in Iraq. Nothing you can do can change history back — we have to deal with our mistakes there.

    “They were meek under Saddam”

    Maybe they were meek because Saddam used (as described in this Human Rights Watch report) nerve gas on them?

    “as far as abandoning allies being something you can’t do … historically thats exactly what we do. If you don’t believe me ask the vietnamese”

    THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT:
    1. Did we not ignore warning of genocide before we left Vietnam?
    2. Should we continue being the cowardly country that abandons allies (just like Vietnamese)?

    “I’m sorry you don’t like my viewpooint, but it is my viewpoint.”

    Don’t be sorry – it is your First Amendment Right.

    “I was against this atrocity in the first place, and I have not once changed my opinion of it.”

    Decision to start war was in 2003. Today it is 2007. The horse is out of barn

    The question is not whether you are pro-war or against-war. War has already started.

    Any war can be ended in two ways :
    1. victory
    2. defeat

    The question is: which one do you prefer?

  20. armilnov said

    to criminyjicket

    I just want to emphasize something:

    “I’m sorry you don’t like my viewpooint, but it is my viewpoint.”

    I appreciate differing points of view because I like to debate people. Stop apologizing, please.

    If I wanted to talk only to people who agree with me, I would have banned you long time ago 🙂 trust me

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